Feed Needs

[redman2006]

Tex,
Thanks for the well thought out answer. I am sorry that my typing on the phone this morning was such a mess.

It is interesting to me that your fescue was a fall crop. By the fall, we are done here. It has been cut 2 to 4 times and then allowed to rest.

I also wonder about the desire to have a monoculture in a pasture. There is a reason that the plants evolved together and often it provides feed year round, but not at a level that can sustain the intense grazing we need or desire today. I look at the longhorns of the 1800's in Texas as an example. The right animal on the right range did very well, granted, they are not the fat beef we desire today.

I chuckle at these guys here. They won't invest in the cattle because they are not making any money off of them, but they are not making any money because they will not invest in them.

Parasites here are a huge issue that can be controlled with good grazing management. When you have a stocking rate of less than 1 acre per cow calf unit, you have to manage it or the parasites will take every bit of profit and gain out of your animals.

Anyway, a lot of this is just rambling.

[southernmom]

Yep, Great conversation. Whenever we all get to talking it gets me thinking. I appreciate it!

[Elk Wallow]

Let's be clear on a couple of things.

#1. Sheep saved texas, not cattle. Sheep won the west, not cattle. I know my history. Sheep are a legitimate choice in some circumstances.
#2. Much of your "advice" is simply inaccurate, and if followed will cost people money, so please stopping "advising."
#3. I am not usually this easily provoked, but I can not stand "experts" with a single cow and a man friend, arguing with 2 people deeply rooted in production agriculture. You could actually benefit if you would listen.

It is from the Texas range wars along the Red River my family bloodstock comes. Sheep ruin the range, they chew down and even eat the grass roots. They also stink. My man friend has 4 generations on this cattle ranch alone. Go ahead and blow your top, you are henceforward put on Ignore.

[Elk Wallow]

Southern mom, excuse me for the broad generalization of southern grass. Now, Florida ia basically limestone, is it not? No wonder it is strong. This central Texas sugar sand is leached and the cows have to have protein in the winter or the calf crop goes to 50%. I myself have been to the central American tropics. What sorry cattle they had there on that tropical grass. Also the horses- stunted and skinny.

[Elk Wallow]

Where I grew up in NE Texas, we depended on Fescue along with clover as our winter time grasses. The fescue would have so much protien, we would have to turn in enough cows so that none of them could get overloaded with it. If we weren't careful about their intake of the fescue, the cattle could very easily founder on it. We would get as much use as possible of the standing winter graze and then we would go to feeding the hay we put up of coastal and common bermuda. We would have the hay tested every year and very often our hay would have a protien level of 19%. I never remember a test where it didn't test atleast 12% and that was always on our worst fields. We never had to feed anything except the hay we put up. We would wean calves at 55%-60% of their momma's weight and when you can sell 5 and 6 weight calves, that is always good.



Tex

The Bermuda hay that grows here is 8% to 12%. Clover does grow here but it comes late in the spring and the cattle can bloat on it.

The thing is, every area is different, isn't it.

[redman2006]

The range wars were about the right to graze and have it all to one's self. Yes, they involved cattle vs sheep, but not in the way the history books would show. Sheep have actually been shown to cause less damage via compaction to the soil than cattle, and because of a lower water requirement, less "trail making" in the regions they are grazed. The real issue with sheep, like any grazing animal, is management. Sheep like to sit in one spot and mow down the grass then move to the next area and graze it to the ground. They need small pastures and rotational grazing or active herding to be well managed. At least that has been my experience with them.

Horses are some of the toughest animals on grass when left in a confined situation, yet they are the most romanticized animal in western folklore. They don't taste bad either.

As to the odor, it all smells like money when they ship. Having worked the feed yards of western Kansas, I can assure you, cattle shit smells like shit too! Hogs smell worse, and I have raised a few of them, been proud to do so, and enjoy them when they are in the freezer. Consider too that the sheep provide not only a lamb or two every year, but an annual harvest of wool as well. In many respects, they are much more efficient than cattle, especially on arid scrubby land.

There are lots of reasons that the cattle in the tropics are different, not just grass. Parasites, the ability to shed heat during the hot and humid times, money available to the people for investment in the livestock, available genetics, desirability of various characteristics based on region, resistance to diseases and disease prevelence, and so on. The same applies to the horses. Yes, nutrition is one factor, but only one out of many.

Frankly, for you to speak so rudely to a respected and established member of the forum is unacceptable. You are regurgitating information you have heard rather than learned and lived. You are exhibiting a serious display of narrow-mindedness and rudeness without the credentials to back it up. I would suggest an apology, but I am sure I will now be placed on ignore as well.

[Tex]

This thread has been slightly cleaned up and it shall stay that way.

When it comes to agriculture, this board has ALOT of knowledge and experience and the one thing that has been pointed out as an attribute, is that nobody acts as if they are an expert. Farmers, ranchers, homesteaders, gardeners, vets, we have it all. This is a much better place to share ideas than it is a place to tell others how they are doing it wrong.

Let's get back to sharing ideas and try to keep the conversations moving forward so that we may all learn something.



Tex

[W.Lynn]

Speaking of learning something - the grandsons got tired of the little garden bed I made for them a while back, my daughter has decided she wants to try to get something growing. I may have to build a pvc framed cover like Nichevo's garden beds get. This thick, black, sticky-when-moistened "central Texas sugar sand" (which does exist, but not within walking distance of my place!) might keep us in fresh greens all winter.

North side of the San Gabriel river, east of Georgetown, after the north & south forks join. Floods every now and then, like the Nile's much smaller, redneck cousin. Great dirt.