Feed Needs

[Elk Wallow]

Nothing. Thinking of horses reminded me of something. Horses are proof of god's existence, one of many.

Warhorses surely had grain in ancient times. Here is proof from the writings of the Greek cavalry commander Xenophon

http://www1.hollins.edu/faculty/saloweyca/horse/onhorsemanship.htm

Also, the ancient Egyptians fed their chariot horses grain. This can be seen in their extensive carvings on stone walls.

Of course everybody knows, when a horse is worked beyond what good grass can supply they need extra feed. And in some areas of weak grass, at certain times of the year, both horses and cattle need hard feed. A cow not well fed, she will not be expected to produce a calf every year. A horse on just weak grass will loose weight and condition.

On this ranch here, back in the day before feed mills and cow cubes, the grandfather and other pioneer people had corn cribs. These were buildings where ear corn was kept. People would throw some corn still on the cob to the cattle. Of course, a lot of the uncrushed corn went right through the cows, but they made it. They also did not have as many cattle on the pastures as they do now. Then a generation ago, the agriculture scientists came up with new strains of perennial grasses such as coastal bermuda and tropical Bahia. This could raise many more cattle and calves but it had to be fertilized. Back then, fertilizer (made of oil) was cheap. Now it is no longer cheap. You can't make any money that way anymore. So now its back to native grass and rotational grazing. I am not expert on this. This is just what I have been told. Although I am a professional cattle woman. I even have a tax exemption agricultural card. It says Daphne's Dairy. Daphne is my cow. This is a one cow operation.

[doublel]

I beleive you should grow animals to match your situation. For awhile dad was breeding some gelbvieh into our angus/Hereford herd and the creatures got too big to breed back on our grass. So in a real big hurry he culled the most gelbvieh looking ones, and put a rangey herford on them and got them back to a much lower feed requirement. He didn't stick with the gelbvieh and add extra feed (cost) he changed the animal to match his operation. We feed some hay in the winter, but our neighbors feed very little and the animals that survive match the available feeds. Sure we are in Wyoming where grass is good, but it seems it would be a practical thing wherever the operation is. And in some cases that would mean switching from cattle to goats or sheep.

[Elk Wallow]

Sheep...yuk.

The continental breeds, the , Maine anjou, Gelbvieh , Blonde d'Aquitaine, Charolais, Chianina, Limousin - most of those were dual and even triple purpose cattle (meat, milk and draft oxen) So they tend to have large frames and are high maintenance and need a lot of care and feed. They are actually yard cattle. Back in the 1950s early 60's,, Hereford and Angus were bred down so small and perfect ( I remember these cattle, my family raised them and showed them) The steaks were getting to the size of pork chops. So people imported these European breeds to add size. They added too much size. My man , who's dad used to raise Charolais, the cattle got too big for the equipment, the slaughterhouse installations, even the packages and self space at the grocery store. So they have been bred smaller again.

[Elk Wallow]

OK so how to prep for livestock in winter and in places where the grass is not strong? A cow can starve to death standing belly deep in dry grass if there is not enough protein to feed her rumen bacteria so she can get the good out of the roughage. I've been thinking about it and for my milk cow I would store alfalfa hay. Hay stored in barns only looses 2% of it's nutrition a year when stored this way. Alfalfa would be used to supliment the winter grass, give her protein and also calcium and vitamins she needs to make milk. Horses do great if thrown a flake of alfalfa a day when the rest is low quality hay or grass, no grain needed. Alfalfa is expensive, though. AKA green gold.

[doublel]

Let's be clear on a couple of things.

#1. Sheep saved texas, not cattle. Sheep won the west, not cattle. I know my history. Sheep are a legitimate choice in some circumstances.
#2. Much of your "advice" is simply inaccurate, and if followed will cost people money, so please stopping "advising."
#3. I am not usually this easily provoked, but I can not stand "experts" with a single cow and a man friend, arguing with 2 people deeply rooted in production agriculture. You could actually benefit if you would listen.

[southernmom]

*peeks head in from down south in Florida aka southeast where grass supposedly is weak and washy*
I come from a looooooong line of cattle ranchers-we're talking before Florida was a state. My great great grandfather ran cattle from down south up to North FL to GA during the civil war to feed the troops-and my great grandfather ran them up not long after the war. My Pop who pretty much raised me grew up running thousands of head of cattle all over central Florida and I have been involved in it all my life in one form or another...and I am here to tell you that the grass is FREAKING FINE.
Seldom did we ever have to give much hay, and it was a rarity to give feed. Like Tex (who has probably forgotten more than a lot of people know) Pop only ever supplemented with the occasional molasses and the occasional mineral blocks. And we didn't fertilize fields and we didn't plant 'special' hay.
And our cattle have always been quite fat, and brought a mighty fine price at market.
I'm offended that our grass down here was insulted. *storms off*

[redman2006]

Southern, what grasses do you have? The fescue here is the primary grass, and it is not good come winter. Most areas have native grasses that may not be as productive, but they belong in the area, and tend to be better suited that the imports like fescue and bermuda.

[Tex]

Where I grew up in NE Texas, we depended on Fescue along with clover as our winter time grasses. The fescue would have so much protien, we would have to turn in enough cows so that none of them could get overloaded with it. If we weren't careful about their intake of the fescue, the cattle could very easily founder on it. We would get as much use as possible of the standing winter graze and then we would go to feeding the hay we put up of coastal and common bermuda. We would have the hay tested every year and very often our hay would have a protien level of 19%. I never remember a test where it didn't test atleast 12% and that was always on our worst fields. We never had to feed anything except the hay we put up. We would wean calves at 55%-60% of their momma's weight and when you can sell 5 and 6 weight calves, that is always good.



Tex

[redman2006]

That is interesting. In the early flush of spring cattle and horses really can have issues here. In winter, they survive, but not well. Locally, it may be more of a management issue rather than forage itself. We're you mowing and then grazing or was this strictly pastured?

The endophyte problem, especially for hirses, is real. People plant endophyte free, but it eventually moves in.


The bermuda is good quality, but we see a lot of I pact ions on bermuda hay in the winter. Mostly this is a fine grass low water consumption combination.

Neither of them, locally, see to do well as standing winter forage. As hays they are both good if you can find peoe that cut early and regularly. Rarely will anyone ever have hay tested here. Management costs for the few animals each farm runs are perceived to be too high for things like that. The same way very few will invest in genetics around here. The attitude is why bother, I only have 5-10 head?

There are exceptions.

Fescue seems to be pretty similar to appropriately cut prairie grass at home. Cut it right, you have great hay, cut too late, you are practically feeding straw in terms of digestability. A few that I asked about testing looked completely blank when I asked if they were testing just protein or digestible protein. Most just had a crude protein run because it was cheaper.

We have some pockets of low selenium here. It is odd because it is very localized. One farm has no issue, 1/4 mile down the road they are losing their shirts to it if not supplemented. There are even significant pockets in hay fields that are side by side. It is pretty odd to me that it is not more even through the region.



Completely unrelated. I saw my first case of slobbers. Guy thought he had a rabid horse to be put down and tested. Moldy clover in his hay. Pretty neat case. Made me look good! Lol

[southernmom]

Southern, what grasses do you have? The fescue here is the primary grass, and it is not good come winter. Most areas have native grasses that may not be as productive, but they belong in the area, and tend to be better suited that the imports like fescue and bermuda.

Primarily Bahia in our fields. We also have a wooded pasture that has all manner of clovers and weeds and bushes, etc. There's also a big swampy pond with all sorts of fun stuff the cows love to meander in.
Lot of Tifton and alfalfa out here as well, but more bahia. (In my experience in this county).

[Tex]

Before I reply, let me state that I have had ranching experience Texas, Oklahoma, South Dakota and Wyoming. That in no way means that I have anything figured out. Anyone who knows anything about cattle, livestock and ranching, knows that it is all by trial and error and when you find a method that works for you, you tend to slow up on the trial of new things. That is mainly because the errors are damned expensive.

That is interesting. In the early flush of spring cattle and horses really can have issues here. In winter, they survive, but not well. Locally, it may be more of a management issue rather than forage itself. We're you mowing and then grazing or was this strictly pastured?

Keep in mind that different regions will all have different challenges and what works in Texas can very easily lead to problems elsewhere. Our fescue in Texas and Oklahoma didn't get ramped up and into full production until fall. In our area, with a somewhat moderate climate, it was a true wintertime graze.

We always left the fescue and clover standing and would turn the cattle in at the appropriate time each year. Initially we would have to over graze these stands of graze because of the chance of founder, which could lead to all sorts of problems if not managed. After the fescue was ate down to a more manageable level the chances for foundering the cattle would diminish and we could adjust the number of animals in the pastures with the fescue.

The endophyte problem, especially for hirses, is real. People plant endophyte free, but it eventually moves in.

It moves in because they are probably planting it in pastures where there are already other types of grasses or even other kinds of fescue that is not resistant. Planting it in one pasture will do little good and end up wasting money if the rancher has non-resistant varieties in other pastures. Rotational grazing is most likely responsible when it comes to invasive species entering into specific plantigs.

The bermuda is good quality, but we see a lot of I pact ions on bermuda hay in the winter. Mostly this is a fine grass low water consumption combination.

Is it a low water consumption, or a low water availability. You know how it is out here for grass that tries to grow in amongst the sagebrush. The sage absorbs and consumes over 5x's the amount of water that grass does. Bahia and Dallas grass are both a water grass and they are hell on a hayfield they have been left to invade. They are both a decent graze for sandy soils, but the best time to utilize them is when they are between 2-6 inches of growth. After that they turn into all stem and rob water from the more quality grasses in the vicinity.

If hay equipment was designed to harvest these grasses when they are within that 2-6" window, things would be great, but that is not the case. This is why most hay producers make a valiant effort to keep any and all water grasses from their hayfields. They would rather the available water go to the grasses that are the most beneficial to the livestock they are feeding.

Neither of them, locally, see to do well as standing winter forage. As hays they are both good if you can find peoe that cut early and regularly. Rarely will anyone ever have hay tested here. Management costs for the few animals each farm runs are perceived to be too high for things like that. The same way very few will invest in genetics around here. The attitude is why bother, I only have 5-10 head?

I would venture to guess that somewhere in the 90% range of all problems cattlemen face are do to pasture management. Being a good rancher requires a person to know as much as they possibly can about cattle. The flip side of that though, and the part many people do not give near enough thought to, is that ranchers are 'grass farmers' first and foremost. Without quality grass, they will not be in the cattle business very long.

I have seen time and again, piss ignorant ranchers who try to starve a profit out of their cattle and it never works out well for them when it comes shipping time. How can a rancher expect a good yearly check if they don't know what they are feeding? That just doesn't make sense. People will get their garden soil tested, so they know what to add in order to grow good vegetables. Why not test the hay they are feeding? Most quality hay producers will already have this done. Even those people with only 5-10 head should be concerned and they should demand that from the people they get hay from.

There are exceptions.

Fescue seems to be pretty similar to appropriately cut prairie grass at home. Cut it right, you have great hay, cut too late, you are practically feeding straw in terms of digestability. A few that I asked about testing looked completely blank when I asked if they were testing just protein or digestible protein. Most just had a crude protein run because it was cheaper.

We have some pockets of low selenium here. It is odd because it is very localized. One farm has no issue, 1/4 mile down the road they are losing their shirts to it if not supplemented. There are even significant pockets in hay fields that are side by side. It is pretty odd to me that it is not more even through the region.

The things you mentioned here make a great case for being on a good mineral program. Not every piece of ground is the same and there can be wide variances even in neighboring pastures. Cattle that are not on a good mineral program can face all sorts of problems, not the least of which is feed utilization. It is those vitamins and mineral that help cattle to properly digest and get the best use out of the feed they have available. It also helps the mothers who are nursing calves. I won't go into all the details and bore everyone, but lets just say that without a good mineral program, everything else the cattleman does is like trying to play, 'pin the tale on the donkey'.

Redman, most of the different issues you brought up boil down to pasture management. With the average herdsize in the US being less than 50 head, most cattle owners will simply run their cows on small pieces of property and leave them in just one or maybe two pastures all year long. That is not proper pasture management. From the worms below the ground, to the manure, and all the way up to the seed heads on the grass, there is ALOT going on when it comes to grass production.

Another area many people fall short in, is not doing their due diligence when it comes to researching the best cattle bloodlines for their area or region. Many people will buy cattle they like the color of, or because ol' so and so said to. The fact is, many bloodlines within the modern genetic strains today have been developed with specific needs in mind. They have even developed some strains with certain regions of the country in mind. Some of these haired up angus would really suffer down south and some of those thin hided cattle from down there would not last a winter up here.

I have had alot of people on these boards over the years ask me what they should get and the best answer I can give them is to head to the coffeshop early in the mornings and talk to the old local producers. Those old guys have already taken the trial and error out of it. People just need to throw away their preconceived notions, shut up, and listen. Most of those old guys like to talk and are happy to help, but they won't sit there and argue with a person who is supposedly seeking advice. They have done all the hard work and they have already been through all of the different trends ( which, by the way, rarely work out). Sitting up here, 2000 miles away, all I can do is talk in generalities, because I have not been involved with ranching in that area. If I did have questions though, I would be on the phone with people I know in that area. If I were to have questions about feeding cattle in a confined setting, I would call up this washed up old vet that I know. One of the best things a person in agriculture can have is a good supply of information. There are always questions. A person doesn't need to know all the answers, but they do need to know where to go and get those answers.

I hope that helps some.

Completely unrelated. I saw my first case of slobbers. Guy thought he had a rabid horse to be put down and tested. Moldy clover in his hay. Pretty neat case. Made me look good! Lol

Don't that make you feel good? How old was the hay? I'm betting the only feed the horse was getting was the hay and he was being kept stalled.



Tex

[southernmom]

I was thinking on this thread a bit, My earlier response was cut short as my neighbor had a duck emergency and I had to go help her. (two loose dogs got in her duckpen and mangled her ducks. I ran over and doctored them a bit. They might be ok.)
anyway-I do remember Pop remarking about low selenium and in some cases phosphorous in some areas of FL soil-which seems amazing in light of all the phosphorous mining boom out here. You can't throw a rock without hitting an old mine or lake that was because of mining. Seriously, I swam many times in old rock mines and there are at least 6 of them within a 15 minute drive.
Anyway, That's why he made a point of mineral blocks every now and again. However, it could be that the area we are in is more mineral strong in the ground-because most cattlemen in the area don't over do it on salt or minerals...Now thinking back on FL cattle history before mineral and salt blocks were available , it seems the cracker cattle were somehow a little more tolerant of that deficiency, or they roamed near brackish water down south and got the minerals they needed in that area or the piney scrub...they were (are) also amazingly parasite resistant. I think deficiency and such became more of a problem when more muscled up beef cattle were introduced to this area.
I don't think this calls into question the nutritional value of the grass in this area, on the whole, however.
SO yeah, know your area and what does best there. I think should I ever gain more control over the cows in our family I will get back to some cracker cattle like my family dealt with way back. They are super resilient.

[redman2006]

SM,
Your family history reminds me of a book. "A Land Remembered" I do not know if you read that, but I really enjoyed it.

[southernmom]

SM,
Your family history reminds me of a blood. "A Land Remembered" I do not know if you read that, but I really enjoyed it.

I do love that book-when I first read it I kept having to stop and tell the kids 'see! told you!' it was another validation of all the stories I grew up hearing (and living). Just don't get me started on all the unexplainable stuff. Yall will kick me off this board, haha!

[Tex]

Southernmom, I really hope you are successful in getting back to doing what you were.

Taking your last statement into consideration. Those Cracker cattle were alot more resilient than some of the strains being bred today. That being said though, I would just about bet, that if a test were done on side by side identical properties, and keeping proper pasture management in mind, a person would see little difference in total pounds produced. Say that ground could support 20 head of cracker cattle with proper management in mind, but on the neighboring place, it could only support 15 head of the more modern cattle. At the end of the year, with all other things being equal, each place produced and sold a total of 10k pounds of beef in the form of marketable calves.

I am not smart enough to try and articulate exactly where I am coming from on this, I just know that I have seen it done in Texas with straight brahma cattle compared to some of the more modern type cattle. It is like the ground only has enough nutrients and mineral in it to do so much. Looking at it in total pounds produced rather than number of head helps bring it into a little better perspective. Those leaner and rangier cattle place less demand on the ground, so therefore, more cattle can be ran. The bigger more modern cattle have more nutritional needs, so the land can't support as many. Each type of cattle has their pros and cons, but at the end of the year, there is little difference in total pounds going to market.

There are other criteria, as you well know, that need to be considered. If a person hasn't done their homework, those more modern cattle can need more handling and better care compared to some of the native types, like the cracker cattle. For a person only having a few head and being able to spend more time with their cows, many of those problems will erase themselves simply by your presence everyday. It would be unfair though to throw the more modern type cattle out there and expect them to hustle in the same manner as the cracker cows. They will fail miserably at that. On a smaller place with the extra handling most small producers seem to enjoy anyway though, this is a problem that is virtually non-existent.

All that being said, I hope there never comes a time when there are no more cracker cows, or Texas brush cows, or longhorns. We raise these angus because they make money, but they sure ain't as fun as those other types.



Tex